On April 19, 2024 United States Department of States imposed sanctions on four companies linked as suppliers to Pakistan’s Ballistic Missile Program, though Moeed Pirzada analysed it as US warning to Pakistan not to move forward with Iran Pakistan Gas Pipe Line Project. Iran’s President Ebrahim Raisi was reaching Islamabad and some announcements, on Iran Pakistan Gas Pipe line were expected. But many in Pakistani military and strategic community saw these sanctions as part of a sequential process of pushing Pakistan towards Denuclearisation. This discussion with Gen. Tariq Khan took place in that context.
Gen. Tariq Khan is one of the most distinguished Pakistani soldiers he served as head of Pakistan Central Command head of Pakistan Strike Corps at Mangla, and earlier commanded the first Armored Division at Multan. Leading the operations in Bajaur. Major Gen. Tariq Khan has been a soldier for over 30 years. Tariq Khan has written extensively on issues related to Afghanistan insurgencies inside Pakistan and US Pakistan relations.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Asalam o Alaikum this is Moeed Pirzada, I have the privilege of inviting Gen. Tariq Khan to today’s discussion. Gen. Tariq Khan can hardly need any introduction. He has headed Pakistan’s Central Command. He also headed Pakistan strike corps at Mangla and has been known for his successful campaign against the Pakistani Taliban TTP. Â Thank you so much for joining me today. On 19th of April. this month, the United States Department of State impose sanctions on four companies, three Chinese and one Belarus company for supplying and these companies was supplying equipment various kinds of dual use equipment to Pakistani ballistic missile program. Now I had interpreted this as a warning and a signal on the eve of the Iranian President’s visit to Pakistan, where perhaps the Iran Pakistan gas pipeline project had to go forward. But many people within Pakistan, and you including have seen it as a saint as the sanctions as a sequential process leading up to denuclearization of Pakistan. Why is that fear?
General Tariq khan
Within the first place, in the first place, Pakistan, as accumulated a debt of $128 billion dollars. And there doesn’t seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel, as to how we would repay this debt. And this debt was incurred by Whole  well wishers who wanted to help us out so that we could become financially stable. And our well-wishers never really ever put conditions 42% of the money that will last be given to us by the IMF, were used for development by MNAs. So, if the IMF is not concerned how the money is being spent, well, then we are going to have this kind of debt. But then why are they not concerned? They’re not concerned because if you read the economic hitman, I think we are going through that process, but nobody wants to say so. We are now totally under influence. We have no economic policy, we have no foreign policy, we have no security or defense policy. We are only open to you know, dictation, we will be told what to do. And we’ll do it. Now, considering all this. We don’t deserve to have a nuclear weapon. And the world sees it. We are unstable. We don’t have proper governance. We have terrorism. We have extremism. There is an Islamophobia in the world. And therefore, for quite some time, there have been discussions on how we should do away with a nuclear weapon.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Have I heard you correctly. Who said, have I heard you correctly? You said we don’t deserve nuclear weapons?
General Tariq khan
Yes, we do. I’m saying as the world sees it not, I’m not talking about ourselves, I’m talking about the world sees it. We don’t deserve to have nuclear weapons because there is there is nothing justifying it for us. In relation to our, you know, survival amongst the comity of nations. There is nothing stable about us. We are in stable and everything. So, if this is how we’re going to live, if this is how we’re going to be, this is what the world view is, the world will try their best to get this scourge as they call it. This set our hands now one of the easiest, and the quickest way to do that the best way to do it, and the cleanest way to do it, is through an economic hitman.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
What does it mean?
General Tariq khan
It means that you are so dependent upon the whole world for your bread and butter that you will eventually listen to everything that they say.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
I was reading a paper, there is a very interesting column by a Pakistani scholar. His name is Dr. Abdul Hamid. He has previously taught at Quid E Azam University as well, somewhere in the 2023. His along essay and column appeared in Korean times. And he argued that in the end, the title was denuclearization of Pakistan. He argued more or less similarly, that economic situation has reached a point where Pakistan’s nuclear posture is becoming untenable. But he said Pakistan is never going to surrender its nuclear weapon, or its weapon posture, nuclear posture under pressure. However, inducements by the West can work if the international community offers Pakistan $200 billion to waive of all its external debts, and to all help it waivers internal debt and to help with the development, it can probably work, do you think is this what is going to happen?
General Tariq khan
I don’t know what’s going to happen. But you see, how do we hold on to such an asset? Like a nuclear capability? And capacity? That’s actually the question which you’re really asking. And that question can only be answered the one really looks at the philosophical aspect of the whole thing, as a state as a country, is the government really willing to run the state? There are individuals sitting out there for their own personal benefits, but there is no state. So, when you are violating human rights, where the people don’t matter, when there is no law, when there is no morality, when there is no moral equation, there is no system which is there, then how can we stand up and look at another person in the face and tell him that, look, this is what our assets are, we’re not going to give it up. There is no pride, there is no self-respect, there is no self-interest.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But why the world would like us to be denuclearize. I mean, how our nuclear assets threatening anyone I mean, we are trying to have a friendly relationship with India, we have secure borders, we have very good relationship with the United States, we are not an irritant to anyone anymore.
General Tariq khan
Lack of credibility as a nation, there are certain conventions that one has to follow and live by, and they will the unwritten, conventional laws and norms by which you live. Today, we have got the worst passport in the world. Nobody wants the Pakistani to come in with it. We are the worst economy going. We are lowest in the justice system. We are lowest in human development. So, we don’t have credibility in the state. We call ourselves a state but their credibility as seen in the rest of the world is not there. How can you have such an asset like a nuclear weapon?
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But general are this situation hasn’t reached overnight? This has been developing for the past several years. Do you think the decision makers in Pindi and Islamabad have not been alive to the risks in this situation that has developed.
General Tariq Khan
You see in Pakistan is a very famous saying as far as business is concerned, after I retired, I try to dabble around here and there with multinationals and I sell for running the FFC. In Pakistan, you do business in spite of the government. You don’t do business because of the government. So therefore, those people you are talking about who didn’t know about these things, they’re probably part of the problem. They’re not part of the solution.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, if I asked you that, how has Pakistan’s nuclear posture since 1998, to maybe late 80s, when we practically became the nuclear has served Pakistan?
General Tariq khan
Well, it has served Pakistan very effectively the sense that I would never talk about doing away with a nuclear asset because it has deterred war. It has kept a country which is eight times our size eight times our economy and work three times the size of our Armed Forces is kept them at bay. Otherwise, they had a lot of interest in certain regional issues, rescue the CPEC etc. So, I think it has avoided a major clash since then.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But also, I will draw your attention towards cocktail conflict It is believed that the Indians thought that General Musharraf had a nuclear blackmail to the India I mean, in the sense that the John Mearsheimer thought that India cannot come in a conventional warfare, but Indians in Kargil came up vertically with lot of thrust and, and pressure in the end, you know, they were able to get us out of Kargil. Right. And despite the fact that we were both nuclear countries, and since then many things have happened the 2016, India’s, you know, so called Strike, surgical strike in 2016 cross Pakistani Line of Control. And now the India Pakistan strikes at each other in Bala Kott after Pulwama and Pakistan’s operation Swift Retort. So, India and Pakistan have, in a way have found a way to fight with each other, despite the nuclear umbrella.
General Tariq khan
When you talk about Kargil, Kargil, we’re still sitting in some areas, by the way, just for your information. So, they didn’t really throw us out. It was a planned withdrawal. We didn’t go well. But that’s how it was because of an agreement that came about and that agreement was a political agreement. Was Kargill a good operation personally unknown things because it required to be expanded a bit more, it didn’t expand because of the nuclear assets, deterring the expansion of war. Why did it remain a border clash because of the nuclear deterrence? That’s why it was a it was a it was a border clash. It didn’t go beyond a border clash. It is a skirmish. But we do countries, when the attack on Bala Kott took place and we retaliated. It didn’t go beyond that it didn’t go beyond it because of the nuclear deterrence. That’s why. So, it is there. But the question that you actually have said that we found a way of fighting war in spite of the nuclear you know, capabilities on both sides. Yes, I agree with you. But that’s not because of conventional capacity or capability against one another on the border. It is a low intensity conflict and terrorism. This whole war has been continued by other means.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But there are so many other things that are happening between Israel and Iran, for instance, you know how Iran struck back however, Israeli struck back, but I’ll just go back into the Kargil scenario. The nature and foremost the Indian government, the chemistry of the Indian governments has changed since then. The Indian government’s the Congress even Vajpayee was far more cautious and careful in dealing with Pakistan. You know, I was reading a book written by an Indian general that basically said that the Indian Army had asked permission or the federal government Indian central government to cross the Pakistani Line of Control and go in hot pursuit, but the Indian government Delhi Sarkar did not allow that. But now you see the mood in Delhi has changed with under Narendra Modi and BJP, there is a very aggressive regime in India 2016 surgical strike, you know, Pulwama I still am not very clear as to in the sense that it happened on 14th February, and Indian elections were to kick start in April. So, I mean, there is an equal possibility. There has been a lot of debate inside India as to the nature of the real nature of the Pulwama map and how was Pakistan or any entity in Pakistan to benefit by doing Pulwama in February of 2019, just you know, eight weeks before the Indian election, but very aggressive positioning by Narendra Modi. Subsequently, recently, in the last few weeks, a very popular book has been published by the ex-Indian High Commissioner, Ajay Bisaria. The books name is anger management. The book basically gives details as to how the Pakistan approach as a business area was then High Commissioner to Pakistan, but was kicked out. And after the after the article 370, abrogation was in Delhi. And according to the book, and there’s several interviews, that how the Pakistani government was very afraid that Indians are about to strike Pakistan at something at eight different places. So, Pakistan wanted to stand down on that issue, are you so basically it looks like as if despite the nuclear posture, now the threat of war is coming back?
General Tariq khan
Well, I don’t know about that unless they are able to completely care for nuclear capabilities and threat of war. I cannot see that happening. And whatever you said right now is all speculation. But this author speculation by that people, speculation by somebody here or there. Whatever happens with the Indian elections, it always relates to Pakistani bashing period for getting some brownie points amongst the electorate. And so, whenever you have elections coming up, there’s more aggression against Pakistan. So that’s a that’s a normal it’s an expected thing is an expected normal thing that does happen. Will conventionally war breakout it depends upon your conventional capability. If you have a conventional capability to restrain a conventional capacity against you. The war is not likely to happen. Now, as far as Pakistan is concerned, let me tell you, we are no objectives in India. I mean, you can’t you can’t define an objective. I have an objective in mind, but I’m not going to discuss it here. But there are no objectives in India to Pakistan doesn’t have an offensive plan. That’s why it’s very clearly states that it doesn’t it will not initiate war, not because of any other reason is because there’s no objective rule.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But the but the but just the Indian narrative is this that the Pakistanis are afraid, and that is how they returned. I’ve been undone very quickly, within less than 48 hours, within 24 hours, probably 36 hours, because Narendra Modi has threatened Pakistan with strikes at a different place. This is what the whole book is about. I mean, this is what the High Commissioner is telling that he was personally the Pakistani government general Bajwa, the Pakistani military, we’re basically we’re extremely in a state of panic. This around referring to explore is the author’s opinion. He’s the High Commissioner.
General Tariq khan
It’s a complete load of rubbish, because since this is a system, I know about, as the Geneva Convention, if you capture somebody, you’re supposed to hand them over, according to the normal law. We did what was a normal thing based upon a higher model platform, and the Indians have done exactly what they do from the lower border platform that they’ve always, you know, roam around and wallow and filth, that’s what they were doing. So, when they’re talking about us and talking about us getting scared, what will be scared about it, where we scared about it, when we shot the two aero planes in the sky they were frightening about that.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
They don’t accept two they only accept one.
General Tariq Khan
We actually got four, not even two, but they’re not even mentioning that which crashed, you know.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, the helicopter was shot down. This is I guess you’re referring to that.
General Tariq khan
That’s what panic, you see, that’s called panic when a helicopter shot down by your own friendly fire. It panics, that is panic, referring to panic, but we did everything very well.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Once we released or been undone since I do research on the politics, Narendra Modi had a speech in India and electoral speech in which he said, if have been undone had not been released your Qatal ki Rat, He said it would have been a total chaos. It ended. In the end the end, his opposition actually went into the Indian Election Commission saying this that he’s actually using national security for political reasons. And then the election commission turned it down. I’m just I’m telling you that this is how the India saw the whole thing. But look at Iran and Israel.
General Tariq khan
we this is how the Indians are that will also political rhetoric. I mean, what else is he going to say we returned Abhinandan property address in a good desert and handed them over to them their personal after looking after him. And they turn around and they look at a gift horse in the mouth. This is the kind of people they are but that forget about it. This is how it is you talking what is right or wrong? What do you think is a way forward? I think the way forward is to have a fair and feel there is no state. So, when you are violating human rights, but the people don’t matter when there is no law and there is no morality when there is no moral equation there is no system.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Iran is not a nuclear country. Iran did a counter strike into Israel, United States, UK, France and Jordan. Everybody had to help Israel to protect that, then Israel did a very weak kind of, you know, drone strike inside it. And how do you see look at those dynamics?
General Tariq khan
one other thing before I talk about Iran, and if you’re going to talk about Iran at all, in its entire context, I want to tell you my position as far as Iran is concerned, I think Iran and Pakistan, the geopolitical situation is such that they should be natural friends. And they should be, you know, almost allies within the region. So, this is my position on it. But the way Iran and Pakistan both have gone about everything, is a very stupid way that they have. So now we are hosting our enemies, each other’s. So, there are issues between Pakistan and Iran. But that is not the reason why I’m here to tell you what I want to tell you. Iran actually is trying to acquire some kind of regional power position. A lot of people feel that it’s ideologically very strong, and that’s why it’s anti-Israel and things of this sort.
Dr. Moeed Pirzada                                                 Â
Iran aspires to be the leader of the Muslim world.
General Tariq khan
Alright so then why they’re supporting the Armenia against Azerbaijan? Good question. Alright, so ideology doesn’t come into it. It comes in to national interests and personal interests of those governments that are there. So, when Iran ceases in his interest, ideology, doesn’t figure it out here. It wants to become a regional thing. So, it has a friendship with Syria. It has A friendship with Lebanon, is best friends, it gets support limited support from Russia and therefore extending its zone of influence.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Now how does it extend zone and zone it has relationships with China as well in Iraq as well.
General Tariq khan
This is only it does it with not as much with Iraq, but a lot with Syria and a lot of Lebanon, the I’m talking about from a relative point of view. Now, how can it extend its influence, it’s under economic sanctions, it doesn’t, is not able to export anything, it cannot really carry out joint ventures and things of this sort. So, it does the next best thing and starts promoting proxies in those regions to carry out continue warfare against Israel. So actually, this is in the interest of Iran for it to promote it. So, it promotes it through Hezbollah and promotes it through the resistance in Iraq, it has the Islamic resistance, and it has its headquarters in Syria, when it does all these things that this is how it does it against Israel. So, I’m not saying this because I have anything against Iran. I’m saying it because I want Iran to be our friend. But I’m just telling you the reality on ground how it is no,
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
but Iran? No, no, no, no. But just so you know, many people would be puzzled for Iran to be a friend with Pakistan. Why do you object to Iran’s posture against Israel?
General Tariq khan
I’m not objecting to it. I’m just telling you that this is the way it is. This is how they are there. They are promoting proxies, their warfare, their style of conflict is through proxies. Their style of conflict is not through physical interaction. And the example I can give you is when they carried out a missile strike in against Pakistan, and we retaliate it within 24 hours, they immediately realize it is better to have a negotiated settlement, because there is no way they want a conventional kind of thing to be escalated. So, when Israel struck in of Sohan. And one recently, when they did the last attack, the first statement that came out of Iran was that we will not retaliate. That’s it.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Let me let me let me add some counter thoughts over here. The lot of Iranian dissidents in United States, which I keep on coming across academics, experts and others that hates the Islamic, revolutionary Iran, they’re very much against the Iranian regime, but they’re very informed as to what is happening inside Iran. They told me that Tehran has been doing these kinds of strikes, Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has been doing these kinds of strikes on Iranian dissidents and Pakistani, Baluchistan with being 43% of the Pakistani territory. But they never declared it. And the Pakistanis have been aware of it. And they have ignored it, because it will not against Pakistan. This time, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Guard Corps actually made a declaration which actually create an embarrassing situation for Pakistan and the moment it happened, the Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs realized blunder. So, the Iranians called Pakistan to apologize for this and the Pakistani foreign minister at that time, made it clear to the Iranian foreign minister that we will have to strike back because it has been taken very seriously. And so, then the Pakistanis Iranians the strike, which we did was a consensus, right. There is why within five minutes of the strike, the Iranian interior minister said that, you know, these have been known Iranians have been killed, because it was a tacit approval from both sides. And even at that, you see, Pakistan and Iran situation cannot be compared with Iran and Israel situation, Because, you look, the Iranian foreign minister came to apologize to Pakistan within the same week, and it was made clear that Iran’s President will also come. So, one purpose of the Iran’s President visit is to sort of reset and sort of reengage Pakistan, Israel in Iran, sworn enemies, you know, Iran is using everything against Israel, Israel is using everything against Iran. So, the comparison would not make sense. I mean, this is how I see it. I think this is not a good comparison.
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General Tariq khan
I was not comparing Pakistan and Israel with Iran, the relationship I was talking about an incident. First of all, there is no such thing that American experts of Iranian experts in America telling you that Pakistan and Iran have, you know, the desert thing for the last 10 years is a complete record. And I can tell you, hundreds of people have been killed on either side by attacks or 10 counter attacks Baluchistan and the political sector of the border 909 kilometers of the border is being worn three foot wide and 10 feet high, not because we love each other. So, there’s a reason for that. So, this is why it’s going on the basic reason why there is movement going on and not because of Iranian dissidents, which is again a wrong statement to make is because of American influence, which is trying to figure out Iran and Indian influence in job are trying to figure Pakistan that is why it’s happening.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, so the Iranians are here Iranians are playing host to Indians. And the Pakistani side is playing host to the American element.
General Tariq khan
That is the Kulbhushan   was there. And Jahan bar   is an example of what is happening out there. So, these are the reality on ground, regardless of what some think tanks are coming up with. This is a fact this is how it’s happening. Now, as far as that incident in Pakistan was concerned, the Iranians had told Pakistan that they wanted to carry out some kind of strike on some terrorist organization, this thing that they knew about it, but they announced it in the press, then also in the press, when they announced it in the press, Pakistan was forced to respond when they were when they were forced to Pakistan also told Iranians that we could have removed and apologize and say you done it by mistake. They refused. They said, no, we will not apologize. So, there is Pakistan responded, and they responded in kind. And that is what happened. So, the Iranians are not prepared to apologize. No, they were not. So, this is not comparing it to Israel. I know that that’s why I started by saying that Pakistan and Iran geopolitically should be natural allies, they should be friends, I want us to be like that. This is a this is how it should have been. We share the same waters, we share the same land, we share the same region, and we are central to the entire region, both of us together. We have history, we have culture, we have audiology. There is no comparison between us. And but as far as Israel is concerned, I will be referring to Iran style of warfare, due to sanctions has converted to proxy warfare. Now, proxy warfare does not allow you to go into the conventional warfare because you’re too weak to do it. You only like proxy warfare.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But in Middle East, which power can fight against Israel? I’m sorry, against this, right. I mean, fighting so it means fighting against United States on the west. So, Iran is very weak in that equation.
General Tariq khan
Yes, it is. That is why I’m saying it is because of sanctions. They’re weak. They’re not. They’re not weak because of any other reason. They have 10% of the work 10 to 12% of the world’s oil, there are sanctions, not the sanctions don’t affect the oil. The sanctions are affecting the medic medicine and health, but not the oil. The oil is going around the wound, it’s okay. And all that. So that’s because of the Brent prices and because that affects everybody else. So, everyone’s quiet and looking the other way.
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Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
They but they have sanctions, because they’re against they have taken a position against United States regional position. That is why they have sanctions.
General Tariq khan
They are sanctions. Yes, because United States in Iran fell out after 1979 revolution. And then it escalated and then gradually moved into uranium enrichment. And uranium enrichment was an Israeli concern. And Israel has been influenced in relation between Iran and United States, the people of Iran and the United States actually not very much in conflict. It’s the government’s which are in conflict. So therefore, you will always find America has handled with, you know, soft as far as Iran is concerned with the hope that thing might change. You know, someday and you’re back into, it’s not the same as America and Pakistan are very different.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, in recent, in recent conflict between Israel and Iran, the United States government didn’t want Israel to basically go after Iran.
General Tariq khan
They didn’t  want an escalation the region when you’re looking at Ukraine, and you’re looking at other things all told. I don’t think the United States would, but that’s, that is something which I’m just, you know, giving you my opinion on. But they could very well be false flag operations, they could very well be other things which will really be cannot visible to us. But as far as the missile strike that the Israelis did, it was just to have the last laugh.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, Israelis also used some assets inside Iran, it was not across the borders. Israelis as for the information published in United States probably use the assets inside Iran for these drone strikes. Iran is very large, 630,000 square miles is like three times it’s probably twice the size of Pakistan, in geography, and with less a population.
General Tariq khan
But it’s only about something like 1700 kilometers away from Israel. And but Israel’s military capability does not revolve around missiles and drones. It revolves around the air and ground strength. Now for air superiority to be able to apply itself in Iran would mean tankers and other kinds of things, which is not possible for Israel without great vulnerability and a huge risk. And unless the United States supports them, they can’t do it.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
You said that you critical. I mean, I thought that you sort of critical of Iran’s proxy posture. But Iran cannot fight a mainstream battle of war against Israel. Yet at the same time, it aspires to be the leader of the Muslim world of the Arab Street. It challenges United States and challenges is right. Right. So, what would you suggest? What can they do? They can’t have a conventional warfare against Israel. I mean, that’s why they and they have created one hell of a problem through their proxies like the Hezbollah is the proxy Hamas is a proxy. Israelis believe Iran to be responsible for what happened to them via Hamas. So, they have Houthi is they have Hamas they have as bola they have several other groups in Iraq and Syria? This is how they put pressure on Israel.
General Tariq khan
Let me again, correct you I’m not critical, like then criticize anything that Iran is doing. I’m just telling you that this is how it is. And this is because of lack of alternatives. This is what we’ll have to do. So, they are on ground with proxies. And that’s how they expand their influence. This is what I said. So, I’m not critical of it. But there are some countries who need to do it. They’ll do it that way.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
Let’s come back to Pakistan, India have always accused Pakistan of using proxies against India, they think since Pakistan was weak and could not conventionally you know, take the India on after 65. We realize that India is a major military power. So, we have created this Kashmir proxy, the Afghan proxies, different kinds of proxies. They blame us you are aware of that.
General Tariq khan
Yeah, that’s why the Indian government is announcing that they’ve been assassinating people in Pakistan.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
They said they’re eradicating the proxies. Why don’t we this is very interesting. You pointed out I totally forgotten that. What do you think of this? I mean, they are openly claiming that they have almost made 21 assassinations, 20 killed, and one I don’t know if the 21st also died. And what is the Pakistani response and total silence on that?
General Tariq khan
Pakistan response zero to everything, because economically, I’ve told you before, diplomatically, politically, we are totally subdued at the moment, unless we have a more stable government. And we can come out more aggressively, you cannot do anything. But here, let me tell you something. When we talk about proxies, or when Iran has proxies, it’s an open kind of a thing. It’s not something which is they’re secretive about the day, they announced their support plans below. They announced their support to the portal every Monday they’ve got a headquarter in Syria. It is designed for this, they have the Revolutionary Guard Commander sitting out there controlling, providing logistics training, resourcing is all done openly. It’s not something which is done quietly. But when you talk about terrorism, then there is a kind of deniability involved in it. And everyone denies it. But here’s something which I’m going to give you, my opinion. Terrorism is actually an extension of state sponsored aggression against one another. It has nothing to do with individuals. It’s not designated groups. It’s not people who are looking, there are people who might be dissatisfied, who are searched for by every intelligence agency, as a terrorist, you know, group when it’s in its in his polls and its influence and uses it against other people. So, the Indians are past Masters, they’ve been doing it in Canada, the president united states, even then they’ve been caught doing it. Everybody’s keeping quiet because of the you know, the issue related to the economic markets and the globe, etc., and all that good stuff. But everyone’s keeping quiet. But the fact is, India is a terrible state. They’ve got a prime minister, who is known as the Butcher of Gujarat. And no other country in the world would tolerate such a prime minister. So here, we have these kinds of people making open statements that you know, we will, we will go and assassinate people in other countries, we will do this and we will do that. And no one say anything about it. So here there’s a terrorist or country which is supporting terrorism through its role in other countries, we have not been able to reciprocate. Now terrorism the answer to terrorism is a reciprocal.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
This is what I want to do. So, the Pakistani intelligence agency has been sitting on it, Indians have been hitting the ISIS X assets. The Kashmiris and the six that thought they were protected inside Pakistan. I mean, these are the people who have been shot. And the Pakistani intelligence agency has not been able to do anything about it. What does it tell us? I mean, either it basically says there is a tacit approval, we have given them an approval to take out the Kashmiris and the Sikhs, or we are so helpless at the moment that we can’t actually do anything about.
General Tariq khan
I think we are it’s more on the on the lack of capacity, because of our focus being different places and different directions. It’s not a tacit approval. I know I don’t think so I don’t think it’s a tacit approval. But the point is, which I will try to make was that when you have terrorism as a as a kind of medium through which you communicate with one another, then terrorism has to actually the only answer is reciprocal terrorism. There is no other answer to it. And I know that a lot of people will not like this. But this is a fact. This is how it is you there’s no other answer to it. You have to call them at pain as someone is calling you. If you can’t call it, you will suffer the consequences.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
One important person in Pakistani history whom you know very well Riaz Khokhar the ex-foreign secretary who recently died, you must have met him at some point. Yeah. One last meeting I had with you as was probably in 2020. And Riaz Khokhar said to me that he fears that Pakistan will not be able to maintain its posture with his India because of its economic situation. He was also very worried for Gilgit Baltistan, Azad, Kashmir, I mean, he thought that RSS is very aggressive. How do you think how do you see things playing out with an Indian government increasingly aggressive and Pakistani governments after 2021 increasingly passive? How do you see this playing out?
General Tariq khan
I, I don’t see anything good in it. And I do agree obviously, I have spoken to somebody who I respected a lot. And he always he was he was a kind of institution within himself. That’s what we started with our economy. 128 billion debts of his 99 billion is owed by the, by the state enterprises and 37 billion is owed by the government itself. And there’s no end to that. So, in, in credibility amongst the state, this is where we start from. So, everything collapses when you look at this, and when everything collapses, you are incapable of really looking at the state. And you will always be subjected to dictation, or submission, or some kind of appeasement or acquiescing to some demand on the earth. As far as Gilgit Baltistan, etc. concerned, this involves the CPEC, which is a big turn on the side of the Indians. And it also affects the Chinese and the Indian equilibrium, and therefore, the Indian will focus on it. And how this turns out in the end, I don’t know. But as long as nuclear assets are intact, we’ll be alright. But if they’re not, I can assure you that we very difficult keeping this.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
But despite our nuclear assets, we are facing a lot of terrorism. You just said a few moments ago, that terrorism is always backed by some sort of agency. Now you have fought against TTP for several years. Who do you think is now backing TTP?
General Tariq khan
RAW, naturally, you will always be backing them back in and then also, why wouldn’t they if we had a TTP type of organization in India somewhere in another land or something we should be supporting them to? This is how this is where enemy states we should work against each other. This is how the convention is.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So can I actually say that despite a nuclear posture, the Indian Agency has found a way of wearing us down. I mean, they are making us fight in Baluchistan. They’re making a spite and erstwhile Fata. Now we are politically disturbed as well. So, they are being very successful in actually exhausting us, I mean, making Pakistani military fight within the Pakistani territory.
General Tariq khan
Because they are because I told you in the beginning that when you have a nuclear deterrence in place, the nuclear deterrence doesn’t allow you to start off with a conventional war. And if you do have a conventional war, your objectives are extremely limited. And they’re limited to the border itself, entering anything beyond that you are asking for an asking for trouble. So therefore, to continue war, by other means, is necessary for a country who wants to, you know, impose itself in the region. And that continuation of all the other means is to terrorists.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
General Bajwa openly telling the businessman and the Pakistani media, that we cannot fight against India because of the economic reasons because of the cost of the war. I mean, he was considered to be the architect of the 2021 ceasefire with India. One dimension of that ceasefire was this that this happened at a time when India was facing a two-front situation, because the 2020 Galvan clashes with China, so Indians wanted a ceasefire with Pakistan. Ready to sold in Pakistan is a Pakistani success. So, what do you think was general budget was military philosophy?
General Tariq khan
I Â will not comment upon general Bajwa military philosophy. And I don’t want to really do that. But the fact of the matter is that as a whole, we’ve not been able to handle the military situation the way we should.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
You know, in in, in July of 2021, about one month and set few days before the fall of Kabul, we had a very interesting discussion. And you predicted that Kabul by the middle of the August, the Kabul would probably fall in a very peaceful fashion, right. In this discussion, you also mentioned something very strange, you said that there’s a lot of tension because the CPEC, inside Pakistan, and the best course for us is to invite United States to become a partner in a competitor to CPEC. And I pointed out for you that CPEC is a bilateral relationship between China and Pakistan, you said that we should have a parallel bilateral relationship with the United States. Because unless we get rid of the tension, which is built around the CPEC, things are going to go south. Where do you think, see the things are standing now on CPEC?
General Tariq khan
I see them standing still and not going forward. But they’re still home. I still stand by that. And I feel that is the only answer right now. I’m more committed to that thought. Let me tell you CPEC is not as much a Pakistani need as much as the Chinese did. And you have got to understand this because of the South China Sea in the Malacca Strait, where you have 300,000 ships going through every year. And you have something like I don’t know how many million barrels of oil going to China. And then you can see what conflicts are developing there with a port, and then with the consortium of Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, India, and the United States, led consortiums, etc. So, the Malacca Strait is a question of time. And if it shuts down, China’s isolated, China has to have connectivity to the world. And it started to be arrived for this connectivity. And the PRI connects Asia, Africa and Europe. And the gateway to the BRI is Guada. Now why is gathered there not because of any ingenuity in on Pakistan’s side, but because there’s a God given deeps see boat, which was given to us as a natural kind of gift? And it doesn’t, it’s the largest port in the world. It has a capacity of handling more cargo than all the Indian ports put together when it comes down to it fully commissioned and 2030.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
If it is fully commissioned? That’s a big question.
General Tariq khan
Yes, that is a question that is where That’s where we’re going. But now, if this happens, then that means that India starts fiddling around with a substantial part of the international GDP, because it’s it connects Africa, Asia and Europe. And therefore, it starts competing with United States all is already quite close.
General Tariq khan
I didn’t mean India at all. Sorry. Sorry, my mistake. China is going to compete with the United States. And this competition is not acceptable to United States
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
. No, but the importance of Pakistan CPEC. The way you describe it, is this, how Chinese also look at it?
General Tariq khan
Well, Chinese don’t look at it as a competition to the United States as much as their own survival, economic survival and growth. So, they look at it more from that point of view. But the thing is, the thing is, what I was trying to say was that that Pakistan isn’t a favorable position to try and bring about a rapprochement between China and United States. And then this concept of bother can be a shared asset between the United States and China let this competition be in the roots with Central Asian republics, etc., which America has a reasonable influence.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
A few months ago, the US Ambassador Donald bloom actually went to Gwadar and issued a picture from there very victorious picture. Did you get to see that? traveled there, apparently, was facilitated by an important Pakistani personality. And he had a picture he showed a picture from the godfather. He taught off the cooperation and All That Is this what you’re looking forward to?
General Tariq khan
Well, I think that this would stop the conflict. But this conflict, there’s a lot of other players in it, you see, like India would hate this to happen. And it would always be interfering in China, when you’re talking about Baltistan and you talking about Gilgit, etc., China don’t like Indian influence to start affecting it because there’s specific routes or pipelines or that’s where everything is going to be moving from the distance between Chinese manufacturing industry to the Chinese ports is less from there to work than it is from within China. So, there’s a huge difference in transportation costs.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
My last, my last question is, if Chinese also see the strategic equation, the way you have described it, why have Chinese not reacted in a muscular fashion to Pakistan becoming very close to Washington in the past two years after the so-called regime change operation, Pakistan has increasingly moved closer to United States. I mean, it is less apparently looks like it’s less close to China today as its as to Washington, but China hasn’t really pushed, it has not been moved at all.
General Tariq khan
The Chinese style of diplomacy and international relationship is usually not aggressive. Right? It is, it is in a in a much softer tone that and which is why they immediately recognize this new regime also. And they said we’ll great to work with you it’s into the make it sound and then whatever regime is in Pakistan is irrelevant, then work with it. So, they don’t use master overtones, to try and influence the situation, they use a soft power to do it.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
So, I mean, they’re not going to react, if Pakistan becomes totally an American satellite, they’re not going to react to it. I mean, they have made an exposure of $60 billion plus in Pakistan, they’re already invested $20 billion plus, they’ve just watched helplessly.
General Tariq khan
I don’t know whether we’ve yet become a satellite. The political situation in Pakistan is highly unstable. I don’t know how long it will continue for in this fashion. But at some stage, I think we’ll have to come to some kind of permanent standing. It is at that time. And it’s to make a decision not right now. It’s too fluid. It’s very dynamic, we really put even to ourselves where we. So, on the other hand, China may not even may not really resist us becoming friendly with United States, because of the reasons that I told you. They might feel that Alright, fine, go ahead, be friendly with them, but doesn’t mean at our 1 cost. So, we can be friendly with you registered without being friendly with United States at the cost of China.
Dr. Moeed PirzadaÂ
More than once you said that Pakistani political situation is very volatile, and it cannot continue for that for very long. What do you think is a way forward?
General Tariq khan
I think the way forward is to have a fair and free election. And yes. Otherwise, there will always be a controversy and we’ll just carry-on talking nonsense till the cows come home. They should just put in a neutral caretaker government and have a free and fair election once and for all and get it over with and everybody will know where everyone stands.